The Fast Traack by Traackr
The Fast Traack by Traackr
SXSW 2024: Is Socially Responsible Influencer Marketing Possible?
This is a special edition of the Fast Traack Podcast featuring a live recording from this year’s SXSW panel discussion, “Socially Responsible Influencer Marketing: Is It Possible?”
You’ll hear from Firdaous El Honsali, Vice-President, Dove Masterbrand Global & North America, Sarah Shaker, Head of Brand Engagement, Maybelline NY, and Claire McCormack, Senior Editor at Beauty Independent, who share insights on how to move the industry towards a model of “marketing for good.”
During the conversation, you’ll learn
- How brands can effectively and authentically bring brand purpose into their marketing strategy
- How to work with creators to amplify your key message
- How to measure the success of your social initiatives and brand growth
Keep up to date on what’s happening in the influencer marketing industry by following Traackr on social.
Have a question for us? Email ft@traackr.com.
Is Socially Responsible Influencer Marketing Possible? Feat. Dove, Maybelline and Beauty Independent
Intro:
You're listening to the Fast Traack Podcast. Hear the stories, strategies, and insights from the change-makers in the influencer marketing industry. Today is a special episode featuring a live discussion at South by Southwest. You'll hear from Pierre-Loic Assayag, CEO and co-founder of Traackr, Firdaous El Honsali, Vice President of Dove Masterbrand Global and North America, Sarah Shaker, Head of Brand Engagement at Maybelline New York, and Claire McCormack, Senior Editor at Beauty Independent. During the episode you'll hear how socially responsible influencer marketing is not only possible but can also help your bottom line. These speakers will dive into how they've built their influencer marketing strategies around authentic creators who align with their brand values and amplify their mission. Enjoy.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
All right. Hello, South by. How's everybody doing? Enjoying your afternoon? All right, let's get going. Before we start on our topic, Happy International Women's Day, everyone. Now, be truthful, who had on their schedule to go do the 5K run this morning? Okay, just two of us?
Sarah Shaker:
Everyone else is laughing, but just the two of you did it.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
So for the rest of you, you still have an opportunity to celebrate International Women's Day and an opportunity to redemption right now with this amazing panel. Today we brought together to talk about socially responsible influencer marketing three amazing leader, three amazing women that their career, their character are the model for me. And I think once you get to know them, they'll be for you too. By the way, I forgot to introduce myself. I'm Pierre Assayag, I'm CEO, founder of a company called Traackr. We're a technology company. We're behind a long list of large and advanced influencer programs, including for some other people on the panel.
So we're the technology behind them, which means that in this space we tend to have a front-row seat into a lot of interesting things that are happening. One of the things that we do is every year we publish a report we call the Impact Report, where we survey consumers and we ask them a bunch of questions on how they think about and see influencer marketing. One thing this year that was remarkable was that one of the key results we found was that 60% of the respondents or consumers were saying that they would not buy brands that weren't aligned with their core values. That sample was heavily skewed towards younger generations. So marketers need to take stock, need to hear that message that it's important to pay attention.
And so this is why we're here today. We are going to talk about socially responsible influencer marketing. Three amazing people, like I said, on this panel. Firdaous and Sarah will share with us their brand experience and how they build programs that are aligned with their brand mission. And Claire, after a decade in reporting into the space, will be a proxy for a lot of the indie brands and how they think about this and how they keep pushing the envelope. But before we get into the details, maybe you guys can introduce yourselves, give us a little bit about your background and also, importantly, share with us how you think about or how you define social responsibility in context of today's conversation. Maybe Claire, we can start with you.
Claire McCormack:
... Beauty Independent, and we cover all things beauty, wellness, and personal care, again, through the lens of the independent and emerging brand space. We launched in 2017, and I've been there since launch building Beauty Independent. What I think socially responsible influencer marketing is? Yes. I think that socially responsible influencer marketing is walking the walk and talking the talk and very much being the same brand and the same group of people that you are in public on your social channels being that same person and that same brand behind closed doors when no one else is looking or recording.
Sarah Shaker:
That was good. My name is Sarah Shaker. I lead brand engagement for Maybelline New York. I've been at L'Oreal, and I'm looking, I'm like, "Oh, there's the giant logo," as our parent company for the last nine years. So I've worked on a few of our brands and so now leading brand engagement for Maybelline. I'm overseeing social influencer and advocacy, PR, and our cause marketing, which for us is Brave Together, which I know we're going to talk more about today. But it's about de-stigmatizing mental health, so something that's also near and dear to my heart personally and super important.
Fun fact, previously to L'Oreal, I started my career in TV. It's like my fun fact. I worked on a soap opera and As the World Turns, so like old-school CBS. So completely different life going from soap operas to social media. I know, it's hilarious. Why I think social responsibility and influencer marketing is so important, because to your point about that 60% of consumers, people, whether it's Gen Z or older generations like an elder millennial like myself, you want to spend your money on a brand or at a retailer where you feel that your values do align.
And so it's important for brands to decide what do we stand for. So a brand like Maybelline, we're a heritage brand, we've been around forever, so really deciding, "Okay, what do we stand for?" If it's this makeup for all and inclusion, mental health, these things, we need to make sure that we're clearly putting that across in all of our digital touch points and we're staying true to ourselves and working with creators who stand for the same things.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Awesome. Firdaous?
Firdaous El Honsali:
Hi, everyone. I'm Firdaous. I'm the Global VP for Dove Masterbrand, so I lead the work on purpose for the Dove brand. I'm also in charge of all the external comms, so including PR, influencer marketing. So there is a massive intersectionality and we're going to unpack it together today. This year it's 20 years of campaign for Real Beauty. There is a massive legacy behind this brand around purpose, and it's also the year where this brand has hit the six billion mark. So it's very clear that actually purpose drives growth.
I want to share this with you today and particularly actually when it comes to influencer marketing. So when I think about socially responsible influencer marketing, I think about influencers and creators joining forces with a brand that has a strong purpose to deliver impact. The good news is that it brings back some benefits also to the brand because, as we heard, consumers are really keen to see brands that have strong values that align with their own values and want to buy with their... They want to actually showcase their commitments to values through their wallet. So super excited to be here with you today and to unpack all of this together.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
That's awesome. I'm equally excited. Just going back to the point that you raised, just to reaffirm it, all three, when we talk about social responsibility, we're talking about something that goes beyond environment, social justice. Yes, this is part of it, but Dove stands for real beauty, Maybelline, the mental health issues being addressed. So I think we're talking about a much bigger topic to support and help society in every way, shape, or form that aligns with the brand.
So now let's switch gear a little bit and think about the context for the marketer. Everybody's just so busy, there's so many priorities, so many things that we need to attend to as marketers. By the way, I say we, I'm a recovering marketer myself, so I include myself into this group. I'm curious, why bother social responsibility? Why add one more thing while the world is already so busy and so complicated? Maybe Claire you can give us your perspective by proxy of all the people that talk to you and pitch you.
Claire McCormack:
Oh my goodness. Well, okay, let me start here. First of all, if you're not honest and authentic, and I'm not just saying this as a journalist, people are going to find out, okay, if you're not walking the walk. There will be a 10-minute TikTok made about you and your company digging up every little granule of dirt. So that is why it's important to be responsible in the way that you market your brands and your products. I'll say that there.
And then as being pitched, as someone that gets pitched all the time, I get about 500 emails a day, most of them pitches, and just know the buzzwords of course are important because they're buzzwords and they give me a quick like, "Okay, this brand is about this. This brand is about sustainability." But the word sustainability goes in one eye and out the other. Until I actually read further in the pitch, connect with the founder, connect with the team, that word means almost nothing to me. It's like, "I'll be the judge of that." And so just know that throwing words around like sustainability or ethical or what have you in 2024, it had better be backed up.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Fair enough. Sarah?
Sarah Shaker:
So for a brand like Maybelline, I've already said we're a heritage brand, we've been around since 1915, and we're the largest cosmetics brand in the US. So because of that, it's so important for us to continue to stay relevant. You've got consumers that have grown up with the brand, left, came back to the brand, a younger generation now that does really question everything and will make that TikTok about you, and that TikTok will get thousands of comments and whatever it is.
Claire McCormack:
And then people will stitch it and they'll be stitches on the stitch.
Sarah Shaker:
Of course. Of course. And you know what, rightfully so. People, they want to investigate things now. You want to know more about the ingredients that are in your products that you're putting on your face, on your skin. And you also want to know, again, like we said earlier, I'm spending my hard-earned money, does this company deserve that? Because there are so many options. The beauty industry is very cluttered. There's a new founder brand, I feel like, launching every week and a celebrity brand every week. And a brand like-
Claire McCormack:
Don't get me started.
Sarah Shaker:
Right? And some of them are super cool and I do own them. But with a Maybelline you're like, "Okay, how do we stay relevant to today's consumer?" And what's been so important is really, okay, of course when you're the largest cosmetics brand you have the money to donate, but how do we do more than that? So for us it's been about really tools and resources. We sponsored the Crisis Text Line, we have our own number that you can text. We have a new program on college campuses, which I can get into a bit later. But it's really taking a real action to improve people's lives and for us specifically in the cause of anxiety and depression and helping people to find the right resources to get help.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Awesome.
Firdaous El Honsali:
I mean, I was already touching on it because I think why bothering? It's two things. I wake up every single day, and I can tell you for every single person in this team knowing that after 20 years of the Dove Self-Esteem Project we've actually managed to educate more than 100 million young people on self-esteem and body confidence. And that makes a massive difference. So there is the impact on the proper social impacts, but actually what's incredible when actually the purpose is really embedded in the business model. In our case, it's about making beauty a source of happiness, not anxiety. In every single thing that we do be is our purpose campaign or our products, it delivers growth. And you can see the impacts. I'll tell you about a few campaigns later that can actually show you exactly how it works, but it's very rewarding.
And so, the point is, also if you look at some of the studies that have been made, like Kantar, for example, 12 years looking at brands that have no purpose, average purpose, strong purpose. Actually, you see that brands that have a strong purpose grow twice faster than the other brands. Not only that, they are way more resilient when they face a storm like COVID, et cetera. I don't know if you remember, when COVID hit, Dove came out with a campaign called Courage is Beautiful, looking at actually what beauty meant in a moment where it was all about COVID and we saw women and men with actually marks of their masks on their faces. And it was all about the courage they were putting down the line. And that happened four days in COVID, like four days after the whole world locked down.
So when you have a clear purpose, not only as you were saying, it enables you to really grow, but it enables you actually to be very relevant in the moment. You know what you stand for, you know your boundaries, you know what you can say and what you cannot say. And I think that's really incredible. But for it to work, if you allow me, I'll talk about a few things. It needs, I was talking about it, to be embedded in your business model. It needs to be very authentic. We heard about wokeism quite a lot. The authenticity come from the action you take, and for us it's the Dove Self-Esteem Project.
The second point is consistency. It's been 20 years, every year has been important and has been building up on that campaign for the Real Beauty, not only on the action, but also on the awareness campaigns. Three years ago we launched Reverse Selfie, where you saw the impact social media and distortion was having on young girls. Every year there is a refresher based on what's happening on culture. So that is super important, but it means also consistency in the investment behind the purpose, be it the impacts, but also the campaigns.
I would say actually the last point is, as I was talking about awareness and because we're here also to talk about influencer and marketing, actually the creators and influencers are an incredible super booster of awareness. If they don't believe in your purpose technically and if you're not doing really the right thing, they will not talk about it. So it brings maximum authenticity and credibility, and also it brings this cultural relevancy because they are embedded in culture, and so your purpose becomes even more culturally relevant to their audiences. So that's for me why this actually matters, but it needs to be done properly, well, consistently, with real authenticity at it core.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
This is great. I love the point that you're making about creators who don't believe in your purpose and your value or your authenticity not going along with the story. What we see as a tech partner through the data is that creators that care more about brand partnerships than they do about the audience tend to not stick around for very long. So the creators that have sustained influence are the ones that will value the audience, their credibility, their authenticity before the brand partnerships, which means sometimes telling truth to power with their brand partners and just saying, "It just doesn't work."
Firdaous El Honsali:
Yeah. Can I actually talk about that because I think there is something really interesting? Last year we launched a campaign called Turn Your Back, and Turn Your Back was a social campaign. We launched it in 72 hours, which is quite crazy when you think about the creative process and everything. It happened for one reason: we had very long-term relationships with a strong community of creators that we've been working with since 2018. What happened is that they were challenging a filter on social that was called bold glamour. First AI filter, massive, creating big distortion. And so you end up actually on social seeing a lot of distorted imagery and appearance-related pressures start showing up for girls.
And so we listen to them, community listening, they're an extended part of our team, and what we realized is actually we needed to act very fast. They were even asking us, "What are you going to do about this distortion that's happening on TikTok?" And so we said, "You know what? Let's come together." And we created this movement called Turn Your Back to Bold Glamour. In 72 hours you had more than 70 influencers in six markets really talking about it, pushing the boundaries, and it created a massive movement. Turn Your Back, I think that's also for marketers, it became not only a campaign that delivered massive awareness around Dove's purpose, it also quite nicely gave us also some incredible awards in Cannes last year. But not that that matters massively. But it delivered actually massive purchase intention and consideration. There was no products.
Sarah Shaker:
That's what's amazing. I think about Dove's work, to give you guys kudos, it's always a brand that throughout my career I've looked at. To your point about consistency, it's like every year you're doing strong brands marketing, not just the product marketing, and reminding people what you stand for. I think that that campaign was amazing because those unrealistic standards. We can't help it if you're under 16 and you're on social channels. We aren't allowed to target you, we don't want to target you, but they're on there and they see this stuff. And so it's amazing that you guys were able to make such an impact there.
Firdaous El Honsali:
Thank you for that.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
And just to repeat some of what you said with a French accent...
Firdaous El Honsali:
Yeah, very strong French accent, sorry. Thank you for pointing that.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
I meant mine.
Sarah Shaker:
Yeah, he has it too. Do you need the New York girls to...
Claire McCormack:
I'll bring my Brooklyn accent into the fray here.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Just back to the original question around why social responsibility and influencer marketing, and what I heard was it's good business, but also it has a clarifying function for your company. You can use it as a compass when something happens, as it happened last year with a TikTok filter, and say, "What do we do?" The path from the original scrambling to a solution is very short because you have a bunch of partners that are there with you. They are the one instigating a lot of this, so it's very cool. Congrats on this.
Firdaous El Honsali:
It's a whole team effort.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
So as we go into some more of the specifics around the initiatives and campaigns, and maybe, Sarah, you can tell us a little more about Maybelline, the efforts that you've done for a few years now around mental health. I'd love to hear both what triggered it, how did it happen, and if you can get into a little bit on how the sausage was made, so to speak.
Sarah Shaker:
Sure. Like I said, it's important to me personally too, and one of the reasons I wanted to work on this brand. Our global team actually began looking into this as a new refresh cause for us back in 2018, obviously not realizing the pandemic was going to happen in 2020 and we would be at this mental health and mental wellness crisis. So it got to the point as the global team and they were working with us on the US side, we officially launched it in 2020. So that was amazing knowing that there so many people, myself included, at home feeling isolated. You'd think, "Oh, what does a cosmetics brand have to do with that?" But it's so much about you go to beauty to express how you feel about yourself and to feel confident.
And so when we launched it officially in 2020 globally and in the US, we were very focused on putting the brand messaging out there and then starting to work with creators in an authentic way where we could both have them get out the word about our resources, but also be able to tell their story to help their communities to feel that they're not alone. A couple of the bigger influencer things we did to support Brave Together, we had launched a podcast, we just wrapped season two this past fall, and it's called I'm Fine, You? And on this podcast... I know how cute. Exactly, I'm fine, you? It's like you're not really telling your friends like, "Are you fine? Are you okay?"
With this podcast we had guests, including we had psychiatrists and psychologists for the credibility and the real facts, of course, because we're not doctors at Maybelline, and we partnered with The Jed Foundation. They've been a partner with us from the beginning. If you're not familiar with The Jed Foundation, they do some amazing work really in the prevention of suicide for teens and young adults. They do a ton of work on college campuses, so why we partnered there. So with both those doctors that are influential, so many of these doctors that are now all over TikTok and Instagram, we had some of them on our podcast, and then we had influencers, celebrities, and creators who talk about mental health, like Amanda Klutz, she lost her husband early COVID and she was grieving so publicly. And so we had her on there to speak about what her experience was, how she got help and resources, raising her son by herself and with her family during this time.
And then we had someone like Elise Myers, for those of you who know her, she's so funny. She really brings that lighthearted humor but is someone who we knew was already speaking about how she's dealt with depression. So that's how we were working with creators in an authentic way to tell their story and get out the word about the resources that we had like the Crisis Text Line and our new work that we're doing called Brave Talk, which is at college campuses. Through The Jed Foundation they developed this expert-led training. Jed is actually on over 200 campuses actually right now in the US. So essentially whether you're in a sorority, which I was a sorority girl... Actually, fun personal fact, one of my sorority sisters is here and I'm so excited. So I had to throw that out. We didn't have this in college, Meg, so no.
But whether it's at a sorority or sports teams, soccer teams, football teams on campuses, they're able to sign up for these on their campus. They get trained so that they can really be able to look for the signs like, "Is my roommate suffering? What's going on? What's changed in her behavior?" and then get them the help and the resources that they need. So that's been amazing. And then we've also another great creator program through Pinterest last year. Pinterest is one of those social platforms that doesn't feel like the other platforms. It's a safe space. You're not going to get bullying comments like you might on some of the other platforms. And so we worked with the Pinterest team and Pinterest Predicts, which they put out the next year's prediction.
Claire McCormack:
So good, so good.
Sarah Shaker:
So good. They had done one, and that really showed the increase in searches for people looking for alternative help with mental health, so think art therapy and other experiences like that. So we partnered with them, and we did a creator program with a few different paid creators on Pinterest that really could speak to these other ways to take care of yourself in partnership with Maybelline, and then also running a brand lift study to see how do we get into a place in the future where Dove is known for this body confidence, female confidence, helping these young girls. With Maybelline, we're this old brand that's in our infancy in this part of the cause world, so we're just starting to really get people to know this is something that we stand for. So yeah, it's been an amazing program, and I'm so excited now for this next year.
Firdaous El Honsali:
I was just going to say, it's incredible to see when you decide to go into that space and how powerful it is to bring creators, people that have a loud voice out there, with you and what it takes actually in terms of depths of what the brand does, in your case on the mental health, to actually get them to really want to share even their stories through the lens of a brand.
Sarah Shaker:
Yeah, because it's so personal and it's a serious topic too. I know there's tons of creators who do the get ready with me and then as they're doing it they're telling maybe a serious story or a funny story. But creators that have done that for us with the mental health storytelling, that was on them to pitch that to us because we would never say, "Oh, would you like to talk about panic attacks or something that you've experienced?" They're serious topics. We're looking for creator partners who are already speaking to this, want to help others, and want to normalize the conversation for this younger generation.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Amazing. Congratulations.
Sarah Shaker:
Thank you. Also a team effort. I'm only one of a pretty big team.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Claire, I'd love to hear from you, again through the lens of all the brands that you talk to, what are some examples that you can point to of indie brands that are pushing the boundaries, that are trying new things?
Claire McCormack:
Sure. I always think of Charlotte from Dieux Skin, Charlotte Palermino, maybe you all know her. She is a brand founder herself. She's a content creator. She's a brand founder, co-founder of Dieux Skin, and also a licensed esthetician. She talks very honestly about what beauty products can and, more importantly, cannot do. When we think about responsibility, it is the responsibility of beauty and wellness and personal care brands to honestly convey what actual results will be of this topically applied cream. And so she's in her late 30s, she has really wonderful skin, and a lot of times... So this is someone that sells skincare products. She says, "Listen, this is genetics. 60% of this is genetics. It is not this face cream that I sell, it is my mom that gave this to me." I think that that's just really refreshing to be able to see someone who has this enviable skin who could very easily just be like, "Thanks, it's this cream. Here it is, TikTok Shop." She's like, "Listen, you may not ever get this skin because everyone in my family has it." I love what she does.
And then I always say to look to brands in the sexual wellness, sexual health, intimate care space. I think of August tampons, I don't know if you know them. Their founder, Nadia, is so outspoken and bold on social media. I point to those brands because they are extremely mission-driven. So most of them have started their brands because these industries have been so deeply stigmatized for so long and/or they have for so long been products created by men, but the products are for women, the end users are women. And so these founders have said, "Actually, we can do this better. Better should be out there." And so they've created it. They are always at the cutting edge of how they communicate with their community. They are excellent at fostering that community through social channels. And so they're always an inspiration for how to work with different people in their community, but also with influencers. Because if you are making vibrators, it's not easy to get influencers to work with you. Go figure. And so the relationships that they have with those influencers are really wonderful. They're often very long-term and very authentic.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Awesome. This is great. Before we get into some more specific advice to the audience on how they could approach it themselves with their company, with their brand, a personal question to both you Sarah and Firdaous, what does this mean to you personally working on this? How important is it? Is it part of your job? Does it help you get up in the morning, go to work with a smile on your face? Or is it just one more thing that you have on your plate?
Sarah Shaker:
I mean, I feel like I've already said that because I am so passionate about it. Being at L'Oreal knowing we own so many brands in the US, when I was looking for my next role a couple of years ago to move to Maybelline, it is because of seeing the difference that they made with Brave Together was one of the main reasons I truly was like, "I've personally suffered with anxiety. I know so many people that have dealt with this." Everyone gets anxious about something, but not everyone really experiences as like, "Oh, I need to stop. I need to make sure I get help." And not everyone has someone that they know that they can go to who's like their safe space, their safe person. So to me I was like, "I have to work on this. I hope I can move on to this team."
And again, like I said, most marketers dream like, "Oh, it's a huge brand, so there's opportunity in terms of budget for content and media and so many cool things we can do to reinvent an older brand," but for me it really was so much about the cause and it's a good part of my day-to-day work. I have someone on my team who focuses half of her time, she does PR and cause, and those are intertwined too, but focused solely on this, because it is that important.
Firdaous El Honsali:
I joined Dove nine years ago, and I'm still here, so I think that that's a big sign. I mean, nine years on a brand and I'm still full of passion. I want to keep having impacts. When I wake up in the morning, I feel very privileged every day because I can see impacts. I was talking to you about the Dove Self-Esteem Project and the 100 million young people, for me that is massive. But not only that. Actually the fact that by doing this I can enjoy some amazing things. One is I love creativity. I love creating new campaigns that move the hearts, that creates this deep emotional connection with people, and being able to do that on purposeful campaigns, I find it quite incredible.
The other thing is I love the agility and the adrenaline that comes from it, where something happens in culture, we're so clear about what we stand for, being able to grab it and make something out of it. That adrenaline keeps me going, and I really love that. I have to say I feel very blessed. I see also the same thing in the team. People are here, they've been here for many years because I think there is something very strong with Dove. And also I would say, I was talking about 20 years of campaign for LBC, I was in uni when I saw that billboard with all these women in white underwear. I felt like suddenly representation was really shifting. I saw it, I was like, "Wow, this is incredible." Then I remember receiving this film, Evolution, that was showing you actually that women on the billboard actually everything that it took to get her there, but also all the digital distortion that was going on for her to look that way. And suddenly I realized, "Oh, yeah, what I was seeing down the streets was not real. Now I'm seeing real." I feel so privileged to be able to carry over that legacy, and I feel like being a steward is an incredible real reward.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
I want to go back to the point that you've already raised around the importance of authenticity, because authenticity, yes, it lives through the communication of the creators and their ability to carry that message, but it starts with your teams. If you're not thinking about your cause as a genuine, authentic initiative that lives at the core of your business, but rather as a, I think you were saying earlier, like a check mark for CSR, that leaves on the fringe, it's not going to work. So it needs to be at the center.
Sarah Shaker:
That's such a good point. I mean, and we've started to do, again in these last couple of years, even just we have our own mental health task force at Maybelline. We have open topics. We have monthly activities one month, and everything from just lighthearted things to getting more access to one-on-one therapy for some of the team. We even did puppy yoga, if anyone's heard of that. They have one in Brooklyn and one in Manhattan, so we did that as a team outing and it really just brought people so much joy. So we're trying to do that as a team, walk the walk when it comes to mental health and taking care of each other.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Can you take me on your next puppy yoga trip?
Sarah Shaker:
Oh my gosh, absolutely. I mean, you're not going to really get to do yoga because those puppies are really invested in jumping on you and it's the cutest thing, but I really recommend puppy yoga.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
And Claire, I think you probably gave the best piece of advice earlier when you said that the most important thing is what you do when nobody's looking. I think it's the best test for authenticity.
Claire McCormack:
When it comes to socially responsible influencer marketing, obviously the brands that we write about every day at Beauty Independent have nowhere near the budget that either of you are working with. But that can be a strength and a weakness because these brands are led by their founders and their founders are still so close to literally the daily operations, the raison d'etre... Did I say that right, raison d'etre, my French people?... of why the brand was started, why that person gets up every morning and makes the products that they do, that's all still very close and intimate. And so there is this opportunity to make that mission very clear and apparent in everything that you do. And so it could be a real strength for independent brands.
I was saying before, the founder is your first influencer. I mean, how many people here have
bought a product because of a founder? You saw a founder, they really resonated with you and you're like, "Oh my god, I want to buy from that person." And so you may not have all the money that bigger brands do, but you have that, and that is priceless.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Very true. Very, very true, and I can relate. So let's talk specifics. Let's say that we brought you guys in the audience to a point where you say, "That sounds great. I want some of this. I want to do it. How do I do it? So where do I start?" It sounds like the first step or the first anchor is to find that set of core values for your brand, so it's the thing that anchors just about everything else. But even that, how do I go about it? Say that I'm a existing brand, a legacy brand, so it's different, right? You were mentioning the indie brands that are born in purpose, but for brands that don't have it at the onset, how do you get to it in a way that is authentic? What piece of advice do you guys have?
Firdaous El Honsali:
I would say that if you want to do it properly, you have to think about your core business model. I mean, the products is one thing, and it's super important that you deliver highly differentiated offer out there with your products, but then really I would say the point is to think about what are those core values that make you so different, and then starting to craft a purpose that is very close to your products and services. In our case we talk about beauty. We're in the space of beauty and we've been committed to making it a source of confidence and happiness, not anxiety, so it's been really about going to the core of what we do and trying to define yet a differentiated purpose.
But I would say that it starts first not only with your values, it starts with insights that you get from people that actually buy your brand, consumers. The reason why I actually campaign for Real Beauty was saw the light of day was that we've done a piece of research and we realized that only 2% of women back in 2004 would consider themselves beautiful. We've done that piece of research, we didn't know we were going to find that out, and I was not there at the time. But when I speak to people that were there, our CMO who actually was there when campaign for Real Beauty has been crafted, it's about really understanding what was triggering that. The trigger was the fact that there was massive lack of representation in the beauty industry, massive lack of representation in advertising. And so for us it was very clear that a brand like Dove that was anchored from day one into real women testimonials... I don't know if you know, but it started with the seven-day tests where you had a woman trying the Dove bar on her face saying, "I've done the seven-day test, and I can tell you this is my experience." And so it wasn't models, it was always those real women talking from their heart about the experience they had with the products.
So it became very apparent to us that we were probably doing beauty quite differently from the rest of the pack. Actually, that's where it came out, and then we decided to stay very consistent and build the action behind it, which was the Dove Self-Esteem Project. But it starts really with your values, with strong insights, research to understand where the consumer is and what are those pain points that can go beyond your products.
Sarah Shaker:
I mean that's all so great, I'm like, "What can I add to that?" Because I was going to also say I think the insight is so important, really defining as if you're a newer brand or a legacy that has to be like, "Okay, what if we always really believed in?" I think with Maybelline we say it's make up for all, and when you think of that inclusivity, it's also meaning it's the affordability makes it for all, the accessibility. We're at every retailer in the US from Walmart to Target to Amazon to Alta. We are a CPG brand, we're not a luxury brand, so it's accessible for many people. And also, the representation of inclusivity and having the right shades in our Fit Me foundation so that so many people can see this brand as an option for them.
So when we were looking at all of that, we thought, "Okay, also everyone deserves that wellness and that mental health can fit there." I would also say some advice is, when you're looking at, okay, your platform you're going to stand on, rather than saying, "I want to stand for a bunch of different things," if we're standing for this like with Brave Together under that pillar, we're actually able to help multiple NGOs and smaller nonprofits that all align with mental health and wellness, so everything from local in New York City like the Lower East Side Girls Club, we've been working with them for years, to the Ali Forney Center up in Harlem, and then Trevor Project, and there are just so many. And then you also have NAMI, this larger mental health organization.
So we're able to help so many different groups under that one pillar. So if you could even define that pillar, you can do a bit more under that space and not feel like... What do they say, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, whatever? So it's like you can define the thing, but then there can be some really flexibility underneath it.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Got it. So do your homework, understand your brand personality, understand it through the eyes of your consumers, and find your core values or your purpose aligned with this. Makes sense.
Firdaous El Honsali:
I think that makes you different. I was talking about the testimonials, but how you've been doing your products for these many years, what is the thing that is making you different in your products but also in your engagement campaigns?
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Claire, for indie brands that are born into this, they don't have that same challenge. They almost have an opposite challenge, where when they start getting successful enough that their sales number needs to supersede this initial core values that they have. What have you seen? How do they grow without losing their soul in the process? I'm guessing that as you observe and you watch the brands do this, it can be heartbreaking. You see a brand that was amazing that now is becoming a bad version of any ice cream.
Claire McCormack:
I would say there is this saying buzzing around social media, don't be afraid to be seen trying. And for independent brands, you are very much building in public, and embrace that. Build in public, let your community know that what you're doing, what you're working on as much as possible. Before we were talking, I gave the example of a brand that is really committed to having sustainable packaging, but the unit economics don't work. The more sustainable packaging, most people know, is quite a bit more expensive per item. So you can share like, "Listen, we're not in aluminum yet. That is our goal by the end of 2024, or what have you." Share that with your community, let them know how you're doing because, as I said before, 10-minute TikTok video, people will find out. Your dirty secrets are not going to stay secret.
So we see even with indie brands that have built themselves on being very inclusive going back to shade ranges. We have seen indie brands that believe they were inclusive and then come out with a foundation that people with very dark skin tones were not included in that range. There was a public outcry, and this is the positive negative of fostering that strong community, they are going to hold you to account. They're going to call you out or call you in. And so, again, getting out in front of it, talking about it publicly in a way like, "We screwed up."
Sarah Shaker:
Be transparent.
Claire McCormack:
Yes, be transparent. When you screw up, say, "We screwed up." Not like, "It was because of blah blah blah blah," but the main line has to be, "We really fumbled this, and here's how we're going to do it better." Because as you're scaling, there's so many moving pieces and your company's wanting to get acquired. And so those unit economics, how much everything costs to be produced really matters. So having a full shade range can be super expensive. There's all of this going on. But your community is really close to your brand when you're an independent brand, and so you got to be authentic and do it publicly and be honest.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
All right, so step one, we found these core values. Now step two, how do I go about integrating them in everything that I do or in my influencer campaigns and else without, again, losing that strong connection?
Firdaous El Honsali:
I don't know, maybe I'm being a bit too presumptuous, but I think once you know your North Star, it's very difficult to deviate from it, unless you don't believe in it really. I'm going to give you a very simple example. When we even cast for influencers that are going to actually be talking about our new hair launch, we really think very thoroughly about those that are embedded in the values of Real Beauty, that I'm not going to go and suddenly work with a creator that is actually going to be spending their time talking about Botox to young girls. So I'm going to be very careful and very thoughtful about the community that is going to be talking about this new hair innovation that we're going to launch on the market. So I think it becomes just a very normal, clear you know your boundaries, you know the things you can do, the things you will not do, the things that your consumer is willing to see and the things that they're not willing to accept from a brand like yours. So for me, it becomes very integral if you thought about it as part of your business model.
Sarah Shaker:
And also depending on the specific product, if it's not a cause type campaign, still knowing that it's someone that's authentic to what you're selling. So for example, with that hair product, we just reformulated a foundation for Instant Age Rewind, which is an older Maybelline pillar, and of course working with creators, we're not going to use something called Instant Age Rewind and we're not going to target Gen Z creators that we work with.
Firdaous El Honsali:
Thank you.
Sarah Shaker:
We did this trip upstate to Mohonk. If you guys have been there, it's very lovely if you like to hike and all that. I was even joking with my team, I'm like, "These creators are my age, like elder millennials and older and Gen X." And we want to work with creators, some of them were the OG beauty bloggers that started as the blog to Instagram, may or may not even be on TikTok yet, to really get their opinion on these products and also be able to speak to how that product is something that's easy, helpful, shade-inclusive, all these things in their lives right now and where they are in their lives. So some of them are moms. They're doing different things because they're late 30s, early 40s, which I know is still young, but just know that there are so many beauty brands that are not even working with those creators anymore. So nevermind working with creators in their 50s and even 60s. So something like that, being authentic there versus our lip plumper that we launched a few months ago.
That was definitely more of a younger Gen Z crowd, and we have the insights of the men and women who love these products that are actually spicy because there's pepper in it, and there's chili pepper in that formula. So people that would be excited about that. And so you've got all of that authenticity to think about with the different creators that whether it's something we're working for a launch or someone that we have a long-term partnership with, because we have so many creators that we work with throughout the year in more of an always-on capacity.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Okay.
Claire McCormack:
I would say really quickly for independent brands that are just starting to dip their toe in influencer marketing, I'll give the example of Beekman 1802. Speaking of yoga, they do goat yoga, so they're a goat milk-based brand. I was speaking to my friend Sonia Elise who works a lot in influencer marketing, and what I love about them and what they do really well is that for a lot of smaller brands that you can't do this big contract with someone, you can't work with the big influencers, you don't have the big bucks, but you can send product for reviews. This could be reviews on Sephora, on Amazon, what have you. Beekman sends product out and with absolutely no return, you don't have to do anything, to just send the product, try it, we hope you like it. Whereas a lot of other smaller brands, and it's understandable, they send product and they're like, "Okay, you have to review on Sephora." They're working with micro influencers, so then as a micro influencer you're like, "Oh gosh, well I didn't really like this product, but now do I leave? Do I give a one-star review on Sephora? They sent me this product." And they're thinking down the road of their relationship with that brand and other brands. I think be like Beekman and just send out some product with, "You don't have to review it. This is just for you to try." and starting to build relationships.
Sarah Shaker:
And be open to creators' feedback too.
Claire McCormack:
True.
Sarah Shaker:
We do love to hear if someone's like, "Actually, I know that was supposed to be a long wear but it wasn't as long wear on me," or whatever it is, because we want to know and give that information back to our teams. I think Beekman, they stand for kindness, right?
Claire McCormack:
True.
Sarah Shaker:
I think that's the thing, it's like yellow, and I love that. I think that that's great and I think that that's something that any brand at the start could at least start with the seeding of products and then being open to hearing the real feedback, whether it's you email back my head of PR influencer or maybe you do post about it in social, but then can we be transparent and get back to you about it.
Firdaous El Honsali:
Building relationships, being very close to the community of creators is super important. Getting, as you were saying, feedback from them. Great feedback, no matter what it is, if it's that they don't like your product, that it doesn't fit with your skin, it doesn't really matter, what matters is actually they're giving you that resource for you to act on. Sometimes actually the fact that sometimes you pre-seed it actually some products to the influencers, you get some great feedback that enables you actually to target better your audience. I think it's a two-way conversations with the creators and the influencer community that we should have, be it on our products or on our purpose work.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Got it. Okay. I think Brad, the CMO of the Beekman, would love to be like Beekman.
Sarah Shaker:
Brad's great. Love Brad.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Former colleague of yours, right?
Sarah Shaker:
Yes.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Okay. My last question... I don't know if we'll have time for Q&A afterwards, I don't think though that there is another talk, so if you guys are okay, maybe you can steal a bit if you guys have questions for the panelists. But my last question, so we have our values, we figured out how to bring that into our campaigns. If I sold this to my CEO, to my boss, what's a reasonable expectation that I can have in terms of business impact? And so you mentioned Dove 20 years ongoing, so what should I be looking at as a way to track, measure success? Is it even the right way to think about it?
Firdaous El Honsali:
Yeah, I think you have to, you can't suddenly invest in purpose, for example, and not be able to measure it. Otherwise, after one year your leadership is going to tell you, "Thank you very much, but we're going to have to move on." So you have to measure, and actually you have to measure both things: the impacts you're having, the social impacts. I was talking about that number, but that number, actually every year we work with NGOs, we work with partners like the World Association of Girl Guys and Scouts or UNICEF and we measure every single lives reached through the educational material that we have created. Also with academics, there is a very formal way to review the impact. So that is super critical for our leadership, but it's also super critical, as we were talking about authenticity, to really show that you are having a true impact. And we're measuring it to see even making sure that whatever material we've developed in the Self-Esteem Project it is actually having the impacts you're expecting. It's not doing the reverse. So that is super important. It's not enough.
You need to show also the impact it has on your growth. I was talking about Turn Your Back earlier, the impact it's having on consideration, purchase, intention is critical. Every single campaign that we do, we measure the impacts on the funnel. It's essential. And then of course there are other ways. For us on Dove we measure the brand power. I don't know if you're familiar with brand power, but it looks at three things. It looks at something that is very simple, it's called salience. So salience is obviously what we all do on a daily basis even with our lower funnel assets, is actually to get people to buy your products and make it very relevant to the pain point they have. And then there are two things that are super critical, and I actually like to bring them together. It's the meaning and the difference. And meaningful difference comes together, and that purpose has a massive impact on. So you bring meaning to people and actually, if you're doing it well and if your purpose is very clear, it takes the difference up. So then you start creating a real actually space between you and the competition for all those that don't have purpose and are just trying to sell the products. So that is essential. Otherwise, your leadership is not going to follow you.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
Got it.
Sarah Shaker:
I mean, 1,000%, because at the end of the day too, what you touched upon at the beginning of that, it's a long game. And that is something too, selling into leadership, because after that one year, yeah, that's just like a check the box thing. It really has to be seen as over time you will grow brand love if you do this well consistently. Like you said, you do it right, you do it over time. So you've got to really measure things over time. You can measure things on your way there though with the brand lift studies. Like I mentioned earlier, we're doing that type of work like we did with Pinterest really to see if people are associating Maybelline yet with mental health. Again, we're still in those early stages.
But I'd also say for brands that don't have that even funding, they're not spending that much in media yet to drive your campaigns, you can even do something as simple as social listening really to see what's the sentiment, what's the net sentiment on your brand and on those topics around your brand. Is that resonating on social? It sounds like so one-on-one like you'd forget, but truly, when people are like, "This is amazing," or they're sharing your brand work out there like, "This is why I buy this product" or "I love this because it is recyclable" or "I am obsessed with this brand because this founder also cares about this thing that I care about."
I worked a few years back at IT Cosmetics, for those of you that are familiar with IT and the founder, Jamie Kern Lima, it was a L'Oreal acquisition. I was there a year post acquisition. There were so many things, she really was still the heart of that brand and what she stood for when she launched the brand on QVC and having Rosacea and she would retell that story and she still does today with her new books that are being launched, but that was at the heart of the brand, to help women find their confidence. I think, yeah, there's so many different ways to measure it, but you could do something as simple as social listening on your way up if you're a newer, smaller brand.
Firdaous El Honsali:
I love that point actually on social listening and the sentiments because very often we push campaigns on social and we look at the impressions, we look at all the KPIs, and very rarely we look at the comments. One thing that I love to do-
Sarah Shaker:
I love to, I'm so nerdy. I was a little community manager back in the day, so I have heart for that. Because I'm like, "Guys, this could have gotten thousands of comments, but they're actually negative so we can't say that was successful" or "This was amazing," and showing those comments to leadership.
Firdaous El Honsali:
Exactly. And I think even in terms of qualitative insights that you get, I have someone in the team that keeps talking about comments as being the new real estate on social.
Sarah Shaker:
I love that. I keep saying comments are the new content. I put it on a slide if anyone wants to steal that, but I think that's true.
Firdaous El Honsali:
That's really cool. Actually, one very small example, we just launched a campaign now called the Face of 10, going against this trend of anti-aging skincare being actually pushed at young girls, as young as 10. But do you really need anti-aging at 10-year-olds? Do you need to look-
Sarah Shaker:
The Sephora girlies that we keep seeing.
Firdaous El Honsali:
Yeah, so it's going mad. It's actually like there is a social trend and it goes into the schools and then you're having Christmas long lists of products that are being asked by 10-year-olds. I don't have yet the data to tell you if it's actually performing from an uplift, but what I can tell you already is that when I see the volume of comments and all the creators that... Actually, the campaign was very simple. The idea is girls are replacing stickers on their faces and face paint with retinol. And so all the creators have started, we worked with them the campaign, it's really cool because we co-created it with the community and the creators in the US, in the US, we've launched it in eight markets now, have been putting stickers on their faces and saying, "Sorry, this is what I was doing at 10."
And that's what girls should be doing at 10. They don't need retinol because it's actually going to not only harm their skin, but it is also going to have a massive impact on their self-esteem because they're already getting on this sloppery slope of anxiety when it comes to beauty at 10. So anyway, when I look at the comments on the creator content, they're incredible. You can see all those moms saying, "Thank you. Finally, I'm not crazy. This is mad what's happening on social." And with them we created, and with actually Dr. Philippa Diedrichs, who is our self-esteem professor, like she's professor at the University of Western England, and a derm, very famous derm, we created a piece of content that just helps parents navigate with clear tips. The creator community is actually taking the parents there. The comments, as I was saying, are incredible, and I can see this campaign already having a massive impact, but the comments are very good early indication.
Pierre-Loïc Assayag:
This is awesome. I think we've reached our time, so if you don't mind, I'll ask you to stick around. If some of you in the audience want to come ask questions, say hi, the panelists will stay here. But meanwhile, if you don't mind joining me thanking the panelists today.
Claire McCormack:
Thank you.
Sarah Shaker:
Thank you, everyone.
Outro:
Thanks for listening to this episode of The Fast Traack. Have someone in mind who would be perfect to come onto the show or a topic you'd like us to touch on? Email us at ft@traackr.com. That's F-T@T-A-R-A-A-C-K-R.com. If you enjoyed this episode, brighten someone else's day by sharing it with a friend. Thanks again, and see you next time.